Episode 18 Empowering Women Through Pleasure: Navigating Pain to Find Joy with with Elizabeth Wood & Dee Hartmann

On: Sep 8, 2023

In this enlightening episode of “The Scrumptious Woman,” host Juliette Karaman engages in a profound discussion with esteemed guests Dee Hartmann and Elizabeth Wood. Together, they explore the transformative power of pleasure, intimacy, and the importance of embracing sensual experiences in everyday life.

Key Takeaways:

1. Mindful Presence and Pleasure:
Juliette and her guests encourage listeners to fully immerse themselves in each moment, relishing sensations, emotions, and visual delights.

2. Bundles of Joy:
The concept of creating “bundles of joy” is introduced, highlighting the significance of finding delight in simple pleasures, such as a perfect cup of tea or a captivating sunset.

3. Balanced Intimacy:
The conversation challenges the notion that sexual experiences should be rushed or obligatory, emphasizing the importance of balanced intimacy in relationships.

4. Communication and Consent:
Dee and Elizabeth stress the need for open communication, self-awareness, and consent in fostering fulfilling sexual experiences. They advocate for an inclusive approach tailored to individual preferences and needs.

5. Overcoming Taboos:
The discussion addresses societal taboos and shaming surrounding women’s pleasure and body awareness, advocating for empowerment and understanding of one’s unique desires.

Expert Insights:
Dee Hartmann and Elizabeth Wood, both distinguished experts in the field of women’s health and sexuality, offer valuable insights into the physical and emotional aspects of pleasure. Their combined expertise provides listeners with a holistic perspective on intimacy and the importance of prioritizing individual comfort and satisfaction.

Educational Content:
This episode serves as an invaluable educational resource, offering a deep dive into the multifaceted dimensions of pleasure and intimacy. Listeners will gain practical insights and tools for enhancing their own experiences and relationships.

“Empowering Women Through Pleasure: Navigating Pain to Find Joy” invites listeners to embark on a journey of self-discovery and empowerment. Juliette, Dee, and Elizabeth leave us with a profound reminder that pleasure is not only a right but a transformative force that can enrich every aspect of our lives.


*Disclaimer: The information provided in this episode is for educational purposes only. Always consult with a qualified healthcare professional for personalized advice and treatment.*



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Elizabeth Wood, Dee Hartmann, Juliette Karaman


Juliette Karaman  00:00

Well, good morning for you guys. Good morning. Good evening, good afternoon for me, but I’ve got the incredible Dee Hartmann and Elizabeth Wood with me today. So I’m actually going to let you ladies Introduce yourselves because what you do is pretty incredible in this world.


Elizabeth Wood  00:19

Huh? Oh, Dee’s the senior of the group. So I will let her read.


Dee Hartmann  00:25

Thank you do it. Thank you so much for having us Juliette. It’s it’s such an honour and a pleasure. I I spent my professional life as a women’s health physical therapist, a physical therapist specialising in women’s health. And in that practice, as if that’s not narrow enough, I specialised in the treatment of women with chronic vulvar pain, and the sexual dysfunction that that brought in its path. It was an amazing, amazing opportunity for me to have women come in and really entrust me with their most intimate lives details. I get pretty good at doing it. But both physical therapy Well, physical therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, and surgery all do fairly well at getting rid of the pain. But we know that our patients who have a history of pain, even with no pain any longer never reached the same sexual function as their pain free peers. So I talked to them about self pleasuring and how they could do things to help themselves. But trying to get them to integrate that, interestingly, into their partner’s sex life was difficult to impossible. So I had an experience with my co author or that the Elizabeth over there. And we went from there into the fabulous world of getting rid of pain through the use of pleasure, pain, getting rid of the pain is still very important. And we still have to do that. But using pleasure takes us on past that pain free piece.


Juliette Karaman  02:17

Where did you come in?


Elizabeth Wood  02:18

So I came in, I first started my career in sex and sex education as a talk therapist. Dee and I met at a clinic that brought together this talk therapy piece, me, as well as the pelvic floor physical therapy D. And we’ve formed this friendship that has lasted well beyond our time. At that centre. I as a sex therapist, I quickly became very discouraged with the medical model of sexual dysfunctions. Back in the day, you all listeners can’t see my grey hair. But back in the day, when I was a full brunette, we only had four classifications in the DSM for the diagnosis, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual volume four, now, they may be volume six, with more classifications, but what I was finding was that I was very discouraged. Labelling labelling individuals or couples that were just suffering from what I felt was misinformation, a lack of information, under educated whatever you might call it, what I was finding was that educational tools, and once we develop those skill sets, their quote, sexual dysfunction, unquote, resolved itself and there really wasn’t a sexual dysfunction. So I moved away, I walked away from that licence. And I started to use alternative search for and become acquainted and certified in other modalities of sexual awakening and sexual awareness. And when I had, you know, a lot of different certifications behind me, I really thought where is D Hartman in the world? Because I’m moving forward with pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. And my clients still are suffering from pain. So I I called her up on the phone and I said, Dee hurt man, I know you just retired but you and I have a lot left to do. So you know, much to her lovely husband chagrin. Now, almost five years later, DNI are partnered in the pleasure movement, and de touched upon the fact that we actually wrote a book called The pleasure prescription, a surprising approach to healing sexual pain.


Juliette Karaman  04:52

Say I’m just repeating the pleasure prescription. So for people that want to find this, this will be in the show note so that you can definitely go to your local bookshop or to Amazon or wherever what is closest to you to get this because it’s an incredible book.


Elizabeth Wood  05:13

We figured if we could write a book together for two years, that our friendship must be based in pleasure. So we’re still we’re still friends. We still laugh every day. And we work together, really creating forward pleasure lives for our clients.


Juliette Karaman  05:32

Men, can we just for our listeners, because pleasure is such a loaded word, right? Can we? Can I ask you your description of pleasure? And what do you mean moving through pain with pleasure? Whoever wants to take it away?


Dee Hartmann  05:49

Yeah, Elizabeth, you you do the pleasure? I’ll do I’ll stick with the pain.


Elizabeth Wood  05:54

So I agree with you, Juliette, pleasure. The word pleasure has been hijacked. Because when people think about pleasure in this highly sexualized world, we automatically most of us go to sexual pleasure. And that can be a trigger, and is a trigger for many. Well, what happened to enjoying a sunset? Is that my pleasurable and during an ice cold beverage after being out in the, under the sun in the garden, is that not pleasure? laughing with your children, or your partner? Is that not pleasure? So we really reintroduce the actual truth that pleasure is about so much more. But we tend to ignore it, we tend not to see it. And we only go to that, that just like arousal. Same thing, a sexualized word. So we bring bring them back and say, let’s start all over again, with the pleasure and the enjoyment of the five senses. Whatever is pleasing, is pleasurable.


Juliette Karaman  07:08

I love that. And this is actually why I called my podcast, the scrumptious woman and why I use that word sculpture business, because for me, that is pleasure. That’s the life force, that’s the orgasm, that’s the T that is all of that moving through us. But that gets hijacked, and then gets by by, you know, by the sexual movement, kind of where, where everyone then says, Oh, my God, that’s taboo. I don’t want to talk about that. Or then yeah. And then we get shut down and our social media gets down. And then no one can actually understand what we’re talking about what is pleasing to us. What brings us joy. Right? Right,


Dee Hartmann  07:51

we we often talk about pain and pleasure being opposite sides of the same coin. And when I like to tell people, if you have pain on one side, and plain on another pain on the other side of that coin, and you flip it, and when it lands, the pain side is up. Pain is what you see, pain is really what you perceive. And pain is what you feel as pleasure is pushed down and down. Chemically, you had a few. But if you flip that coin again, and pleasure lands up, it just changes everything. Your Outlook, you see pleasure, you feel pleasure, you perceive pleasure. And that growth of pleasure that in that embodiment of pleasure, helps to push that pain down and out of our perspective out of our current view. So it’s really important that that pleasure piece be there. As we tamp down that pain, we keep that coin on that pleasure side up more, as much as we possibly can.


Juliette Karaman  09:03

Beautiful. So really, where the energy is where you find joy, how you can be in your body, how you can can move through life. And then the bit that you talk about where the where the females have pain, where we can move through that and actually then be in the pleasure, right? Yes.


Elizabeth Wood  09:28

I mean, and there’s also science behind it. There’s there’s neuro neurobiology, that’s not the word I’m stumbling across it. We truly have pleasure centres in our brain. Sure, if we don’t activate that if we don’t do something to highlight, some other the brain is going to take over. So we’re just we’re just asking, you know, a beginner to do simple things with their senses. If, if they don’t want to use touch. Leave that for another day. A when you become more comfortable, Juliette the second you came on camera, I felt extreme pleasure. Number one, I’ve been to your home, I see the flowers in the background, I see how you have set up your room. It’s designed to ignite your pleasure senses. I know you. I had a ball spending time, ridiculously in your closet going over? It was, I mean, even your partner had a ball joining in my husband thought I was crazy. But he knows. And we experience such joy and such pleasure. And I mean, you are the most I mean, the title of your podcast is amazing. And I know you do this so well. But for those who are intimidated, start with one sense, what to like to look at what makes you happy to see or start with smell? What do you like to smell? What What smells, do you like less, and then you can awaken yourself to the pleasure of the senses more at a slower pace, more along your speed. These are all moments of pleasure that we actually have to notice and take in and allow ourselves to be quiet enough to just feel that’s what it’s all about right


Juliette Karaman  11:36

to feel to actually experience. Every moment, every sensation, every touch, every emotion, every visual, like just the way that the sun is setting. Maybe there’s red and the beautiful purples. Where does it bring you joy, I mean, I call them my bundles of joy. So I make little bundles of joy, whatever my eye falls on, I’m like, Oh, that’s my little bundle of joy now, and I might be smashed a candle, it might be some, some roses or some herbs from the garden. Or it might even be just a cup of tea, which is steaming in the exact, perfect cup for me. But how can we bring that kind of pleasure into our lives the whole time.


Dee Hartmann  12:24

And I think I think an important piece of that, too, is, is having that throughout our lives. You know, we all get so busy. Women in particular, so many more working in and taking care of kids and taking care of the household. And somehow the relationship with their partner takes a much lower ranking and what’s important, so we may have pleasure and enjoy doing these things. But we get so ragged and so exhausted, that in the end, we’re expected to jump into the bed and have what we then refer to as sexual pleasure. Yet, partners oftentimes have hardly spoken to each other. They’ve hardly touched each other. They haven’t shared pleasure of any type for however long. We talk about 27 24/7 foreplay in the book. And it really is about building that relationship from your own pleasure. But then sharing it and having equal pleasure with your partner so that by the time you finally get to bed, to try to have sexual pleasure, you still like each other for crying out loud. You know how many people how many people jump in bed and the husband is raring and ready or the partner excuse me, the male partner penis partners when and ready to go. And the vagina owners like? Yeah. Yeah, it’s really, really important that that communication sharing happens. So


Juliette Karaman  13:59

actually know that the vulva that the female partner needs about 14 minutes for play. And it doesn’t mean 14 minutes of fiddling and playing around with the actual Vord minutes or anything else. But it means taking some time. I was just talking I had an more before you guys before you let us off. And she was just delightful. I’m talking about flirtation, and how you can bring more flirtation and how you can bring more awareness of turn on into your life. And if you do a bit of this before you actually get to the bedroom, and if you can bring in some pleasure and if you can bring in some senses and some delight, then it’s going to be a no brainer. But you’re both going to actually enjoy having good sexual delight.


Elizabeth Wood  14:55

Yeah, it’s it’s, you know, it’s going from blah to something that is Uh, so from black and white back in the olden, Olden, olden days, once colour came on the screens, it was a whole new ballgame. And so think of it think of it that way is if you add these different senses you’re you’re technicolour, you’re creating a technicolour world, for yourself, for your children, for your partnership for your friends, I mean we set we set to lit, beautiful tables when somebody is coming over to our house to share a meal. And yeah, you know, some of us might might feel lazy enough to eat, I shouldn’t say lazy, no judgement here, some of us might eat off with paper plates for convenience. But I bet and I know personally, that eating off of something that’s lovely in front of you, is a more pleasurable experience. And we actually encourage and suggest in the book, that the app, our readers, and everybody, you practice these things if you’re not used to them, and you haven’t noticed moments of happiness, or joy bubbles or pleasure bubbles. So when you actually start have, you actually do have to practice it, because practice makes perfect. And then until it becomes, you know, like a no brainer, you actually have to put effort into it. And it’s, it should be joyful. If it’s not joyful, then stop doing it and do something else. This isn’t about drudgery that it’s the exact opposite of enduring. And so you have to be each person has to be their own judge of what is pleasurable for them. My husband finds pleasurable in the outside world skiing like a madman down the steepest, you know, set of moguls, I think it’s crazy. I would much rather not judgement and actually makes me so happy. So thank you for correcting me. It actually makes me actually don’t want to do it. Yes. Is he’s so excited during that, you know, he the first snow. It says if he puts his skis on and we don’t it hasn’t even stuck on the ground. So I it is that pleasure is contagious. And I know that’s a really hard word to use in the post COVID era. But pleasure really is you know, it’s contagious. That laugh Juliette oh my goodness, I couldn’t be in another room and hear you laugh and I start laughing because it’s so worth sharing. And it’s just it’s just pleasurable. So everybody listen to Juliette laugh and you will bad mood will go away instantly.


Juliette Karaman  18:01

Love it. Oh my god, I got so much steak for my laugh yesterday, Alex and I my partner and I went to see the new Mission Impossible film. And it was like sold and it’s been a pretty pretty awful summer here in the UK. Right? It’s be really rainy and cold and just like, Okay, on the Saturday or Sunday, get it to the movies. And there were just some things that just some of the scenes is cracked me up. Yeah, going down the stairs and this tiny little yellow card. I like laughing out loud. And to my delight, the man next to me was also laughing just as loud. And the woman behind Alex was laughing even louder. And he just looked at me. Like, holy macaroni. So what happened? Did you just like like, multiply times three or five. Everyone around me is loud. There you go, baby. That’s the energy we attract. Like attracts like.


Elizabeth Wood  19:03

Absolutely. And you hit on it. pleasures energy, pleasures experience, you know. And so all those people, you know, they they connected and felt and built upon possibly what you started I think knowing you probably you started first. And that’s what we’re trying to encourage. Certainly our readers with the pleasure prescription. Most of the readers are coming in from from the likes of DS world. They’re in pain, they’re suffering, they usually suffer alone, feeling too embarrassed to share it with their partners or their doctors. They haven’t met a D Hartman yet. And so they they this the shame and the burden that that weight carries for them. And so, the book is 23 Pleasure prescriptions. is meant for them to really learn and understand themselves. And that pain, anatomy of pain than the anatomy of their arousal, they learn about their own beautiful bodies at their own pace. And if they want to the third section is for them to share it with their partners, because you said it earlier, it starts with us. And then we share it as we’re ready.


Dee Hartmann  20:29

One of the very important pieces of that last section is communication. Because so many people don’t communicate women with pain in particular, but even far beyond that, that that old that old view of, well, you know, I had a boyfriend before, who was always able to give me an orgasm. But now this one not so much, you know, this partner really can’t do it. And our goal with the book is really to help women understand themselves first, and find out what works for their bodies, and then encourage them to communicate that with whomever partner, whichever partner they’re with. So there’s an entire chapter on communication, there’s an entire chapter on touch, what feels good, and what doesn’t feel good. And another the third chapter in that last section is on consent, which we know now is so intricately important into everything that we do. So it’s, it’s a book for someone who, who doesn’t have a partner doesn’t need a partner doesn’t need a gym membership, or a pair of tennis shoes, to really figure out what’s going on in her own body. And then as Elizabeth says, If she liked to take that to a partner to someone else, that final section kind of helps them integrate helps helps to integrate all of the information in the first part of the book.


Juliette Karaman  22:01

I love this because it’s it’s so needed for women of all ages. All right, I’ve got twin girls, I’ve got two boys. And then twin girls, my girls are 22. Now I need to remember because it goes so quickly. And I remember when I first really started getting into sexual awakening and this whole personal development, I was in a communicable community called orgasmic meditation. And it was all about learning. What happens in our body? Right? And what are the things that have energy move? What is pleasurable, what is actually sensation, because it might not be pleasurable, but it’s sensation for and to just start noticing that it’s like, oh, I have all these sensations in my body that I actually never even knew I didn’t know the language for it. I don’t know, I don’t have the vocabulary for it. And then most people that I would ask and that I would just get on my friends, mothers that have had three or four children like, so what kind of touch Do you like? Like we do exercises in the victory? Like, what do you mean? Like, how do you want to be touched? That was one of like, my most favourite exercises? Because we’d go back and forth thing, how would you like to be touching on like, I don’t know, just do something like well, let me tell you how I want to be touched. I want you to touch and just slowly rake your fingers up to my wrist and hold it really slowly. They’re add a bit of pressure. And then you get them to do it. And then you make adjustments saying I love how you’re wrecking your fingers up my inside of my wrist. But can you slow them down? Performance slow them down even more. And the eyes of people just like oh my god, you can ask for this. Yeah. And my my girls are like, Oh, mommy, that’s just crazy. You can’t ask for this. I’m like, so one of my twins is like, No, mommy, I know exactly how to turn me on. I know what to ask for from my boyfriend’s I get this that, you know, I I tell them exactly how I want them. I adjust them. And the other ones just like no, no, no, no, Mommy. So it’s just so funny how everyone is so different than that, even in this age and, and time where youngsters are quite out there and they they kind of know what they want. But still when it comes to touch, and pleasure and what brings them pleasure, they have difficulty asking for it.


Elizabeth Wood  24:45

And I believe it’s also, you know, part of that is we’re, we’re our culture fosters that. And so, you know, they’re still hanging over us. That it’s taboo. For a women of all the owner to enjoy their body to know about their body. A lot of us have been shamed. I’m obviously older than your daughters. But even in this day and age so much shaming and of enjoying the body of being out there in in the world of pleasure d&i Say living for pleasure forward life. It’s there, you know, there it’s it’s a selfish thing to do. I’m the only one who doesn’t none of my friends Do you know what? Teach your friends? Their lives will will. It’s thriving. Instead of just surviving this world. I would rather live in a technicolour world than just a black and white flat dullsville.


Juliette Karaman  25:52

But isn’t it funny what we have been? What we’ve been taught, right? So if I look back to when my kids were small, the boys one of the boys used to love it doesn’t matter. Just talking to me. So what was what you said? Yeah, I’m gonna start again. So I just think how funny it is what we are almost indoctrinated by, right. How outside influences say, Hey, that’s not correct. When my kiddies are small, one of my sons used to love walking around butt naked. And that was his thing, right? And he was tiny, and he would touch his Willie and say, Mommy willing massage. And so of course, I had to correct that at one point, when he went started going to preschool. I’m like, Danny, maybe you need to do that a little bit, you know, not in public so much. He’s like, why not? Yeah, we’re all naked. Well, I’ve got Willie, but you know, they don’t have willies. And then the girls, one of my girls used to always put her hand on her vulva. That was how she went to sleep that her hand there. And then the other one, I think thing over a year or sucking her thumb. And so it’s really natural and instinctive. It’s just, that’s where it feels good. Doesn’t mean that they’re playing with themselves at that age, whatever. It just felt like that was calming for her nervous system calming for this little body that’s had so many different impressions all day and just wanted a place to come home to


Dee Hartmann  27:26

enjoy, it’s so fascinating, because that’s for kids, I’m assuming from the same parents, from the same gene pool, yet very diverse, are completely and I think that that’s something that we need to respect and understand. And realise that when we start talking about all of this is that everybody is a little bit different. I think that’s why again, Elizabeth and I tried to make the book as broad and as inclusive as we could, because people are so different. And that’s okay. Yeah, it’s perfectly okay, that people are different. As long as we try to, you know, if they’re interested in if they want to know more, that they have ways to figure out all of that pleasure across the board, whatever pleasure that may be. And know that that’s going to bring up whatever other attitudes and mental things they have going on and experiencing pleasure, helps to lift increases endorphins, and it just makes us feel better, regardless of of where we’re going, or who we are.


Juliette Karaman  28:41

I cannot cannot thank you ladies, enough for writing this book, and really bringing to everyone’s attention that we don’t have to suffer. We don’t have to do this alone. I mean, I’m sure that most people in a relationship have had sex when they haven’t really been ready. I mean, if I was gonna raise my hand, I’m sure a lot of ladies on this listening to this will be like, Oh, yeah. And it might be consciously or unconsciously, we might have been in our heads at one point, like, Oh, my God, when is this going to finish? I’ve got so much stuff to do. I’ve got my kids dinner to arrange, oh my god, they put the gas off so that we’re not present with what is and then it’s never pleasurable, right. And it’s just another chore another something to take off. It’s like, is that really what an experience should be like?


Elizabeth Wood  29:38

Right, hopefully, hopefully, everybody answers No.


Dee Hartmann  29:43

I have the I have the pleasure right now of being a being in a world where I’m doing a lot of educating. And I’m really pushing the fact that we get rid of the myth that of a female sex organ is their brain because we’ve really gotten so on to that and gotten and that has become so accepted that it’s okay to come into an intimate time with with your partner. It’s okay, if you want to just lay naked together, it’s okay. If you just want to snuggle, you really don’t have to have an orgasm, you really don’t have to even have intercourse if you don’t want to. And I think that’s, that’s giving a lot of women. Okay, well, then I’d really just don’t have to do this, I can just do what I want to do and, and that sex really orgasm and pleasure and the arousal really aren’t that important. And I’m really pushing as a physical therapist. Now. I’m really pushing the anatomy and the function of that entire arousal network of that full clitoris how important the labia are, in all of that arousal process, that it’s not here, that really we have psychological arousal, and we have physiological arousal and you need to have both, sometimes one is a lot greater than the other. But the physiologic arousal, that physical functional piece is oftentimes so ignored. And I think it’s so important that it begin to be more a part of our conversation of how do things work? How can we really make ourselves how can we increase how can we help to increase our arousal and you touched on it before, it’s starting away from the glands of the clitoris for Christ’s sake, for God’s sake, I will say that it’s starting with feeling the touch it starting with increasing that arousal as far away from the clitoral glands as you can be. And eventually coming in getting that increased blood flow getting that jumps that yummy pelvic floor muscle activity started to increase the blood flow and really fill up that entire clitoris with blood and get it fully to meshed. Not unlike a penis, which it gets is too messed and as full as a penis. So that is pleasurable. All around the opening of the vagina. It’s pleasurable up and around above the clitoral glands. Yeah, so that’s, I get excited about it. Because I think it’s so important.


Elizabeth Wood  32:25

And I want to remind Juliette, Juliette, I’m gonna bring the listeners back to what you said at the very beginning. For some vulva body people, it can take up to 40 minutes to really get into the space of full arousal. Now, with consent, I’m going to quickly do this caveat. There’s nothing wrong with the quickie. As long as we are both, you know, like, Yay, I know you’re leaving. We got five minutes. Come on, you know, let’s go quickie with adequate lubrication. And with agreement, as long as that’s only a piece of your sexual repertoire repertoire. I say, you know, go for it. But the 40 minutes for some body shapes, sizes. vulvas. I mean, you know, there, there might be somebody who says 40 minutes, you crazy if, if I had, if I had 40 minutes, I’d probably have 30 orgasms. I mean, we’re all different with the time University, some of some of us do require that for two minutes. I am going to bring in one of my mentors, Sherry Winston. Sherry is the first person who said the words premature penetration. So what does that mean? What is premature penetration? What does it mean? It actually means any time that we are entered, so in a sexual experience, penis and vagina anytime we are entered, without feeling ready. And so if you if your body doesn’t feel ready, if your body is wanting more breast stimulation, more tongue more kissing more whatever, and you blow past that, and you’re prematurely penetrated, then full enjoyment, and full pleasure isn’t as available as when you are penetrated, when you are ready, and you’re, if you will, aching for it. And just like, if I don’t have that I might scream whatever it may be, hopefully, more of the listeners than not have actually had that experience of I want it now. And that’s when that’s when the whole experience just is just alive and explosive and yummy, yummy, yummy. So thank you, Sherry when Stan not all of us do Need the 40 minutes but some of us do? Absolutely not


Dee Hartmann  35:04

all the time. Not all the time. There may be other times that it doesn’t take that long, but sometimes it will for sure.


Juliette Karaman  35:11

Yeah. And I think also if Yeah, like I’ve been seeing some some series and some stuff on TV and on in the movies, and we get this idea that my man and woman kiss, because we’re talking about heterosexual couples here at the moment, they kiss. Now maybe he’ll nibble on her ear, a little bit on the neck, clothes come off, and they’re straight into penetration. And my body just shuts down. Like, there’s actually some physical just like, tightening there when I see that. And I’m like, no wonder that youngsters think that this is meant to happen. No wonder that a lot of young woman actually get penetrated way too soon, when they’re not ready, when they’re not yearning for that when they’re not in that, that, that level of desire of that, oof, I really want it. And because it is what, you know what the media shows us.


Dee Hartmann  36:09

Right. And you know, there is literature actually, that asks women, what they consider successful sex. And a ridiculously large percentage of women will say, when he orgasms, when he comes, if it’s we’re talking male, you know, heterosexual sex, the quality of the sex is the best when he comes, that there’s never there’s not a mention of her pleasure, or her orgasm or her arousal at all. So it’s, it’s a difficult, it’s a difficult problem. In the end, you know, we’re hoping that we can reach and help women again, across the lifecycle, it doesn’t matter how old or how young or what your hormonal status is, women in menopause, winnaman, postpartum who are nursing, young girls who are just starting their menses, all women can be taught to understand, appreciate and know their bodies and their own arousal and pleasure.


Elizabeth Wood  37:09

I think is actually a really what I what I think is a very telling statistic, or I mean, even if I talk to my nieces and nephews and their friends, what surprises me over and over again, is that they, they’re the younger people actually have an acceptance, that that pain with sex is normal. And unless that’s your kink, and it’s consensual, it’s actually not normal. And, you know, I’m, I’m, I just came from a vacation with my cousin and her, their two daughters. And they, they know me well enough, but they say that they talk to their friends. And so many of their friends are like, well, it hurts like, all the time. And it’s like, oh, that just that that gets both of us. I mean, D has seen those people in her


Dee Hartmann  38:05

hundreds and hundreds and hundreds.


Elizabeth Wood  38:08

It’s not normal. Again, unless it’s your kink section hurt


Juliette Karaman  38:14

a lot this really this message. This is like the most important message of this whole podcast. PACE is not part of you know, intercourse. And if you’re having sexual relationships, you should not have pain. That’s not normal. That’s not your right heart. What it’s about, we don’t have to have pain there can be right, we can tweak it so many ways to actually increase pleasure and to, to get something out of it so that your body doesn’t tighten up because that pain starts loading into the body and then all of a sudden, there’s tightness in places that we don’t want there to be tightness we want there to be lubrication.


Dee Hartmann  38:57

Right? And we have anytime that pain happens if it’s if it’s with the first touch if if a young girl trying to use a tampon has pain when she inserts the tampon, or if she tries to use a dilator or she has a boyfriend who puts his finger and tries to put her finger in her vagina, and there’s pain. That’s a memory that stays. Yeah, now it’s not always traumatic for everybody. There are some who are able to recover from that. But a huge majority of young ladies have pain from their first volver touch. They can’t use tampons, they they then go to the gynaecologist and they cry on the gynecologic on the gynaecological table, because the physician still to this day insist on putting a large speculum in their vagina to do an exam there, their white knuckle, their toes are curled. Their eyes are clenched, closed, and to my dismay still to this day, just relax. It’s okay. It’s all right. I’m just taking. It’s okay. Well, it’s not okay. It’s not okay. And having a glass of wine before you have sex. Just because all just relax, you’re just too uptight, just have a glass of wine. Or better yet, and this is controversial, but I’m going to say it anyway. There’s a huge contingent here in the United States that think you should just roll the honour should just use lidocaine before they have sex. Have you ever heard of that? Just yet, ma’am. Your vulva? just numb everything there, then you can have any artist bolter?


Juliette Karaman  40:35

Oh, my God. This is crazy. Wow, I’m outraged. We all should


Dee Hartmann  40:43

be to me too. But it’s in unfortunately, in in my world of women’s health, physical therapy. There are a lot of physicians who think that women before they have physical therapy should use lidocaine because it hurts so much. And it makes me want to pull my hair out. It makes me so crazy, because nothing that a physical therapist does to a woman with over pain to cause her more pain. So yeah, that’s a that’s a. That’s another whole topic of aggravation. So yes. So I prefer people not to do that.


Juliette Karaman  41:15

Completely. But just just to really recap, it’s like, what you ladies are doing is absolutely phenomenal. You are changing the world. And you really I mean, what I hear is the mission to have women feel confident in their own bodies, getting to know their own bodies, getting to know what turns them on getting to know what gives them pleasure, and to have a life free of pain. Yes, that’s pretty incredible credible. I think there are a lot of countries that would love to have you to speak about this. But that might still be very taboo. I mean, I have a hope of bringing this this stuff to the Middle East a lot where a lot of rape victims just get completely ostracised and then to Africa where there’s so much pain and suffering, where they don’t really know this, either. So we’ve got a big mission ahead of us.


Dee Hartmann  42:18

Yes, yes, we do. We certainly do.


Juliette Karaman  42:23

Please tell the listeners how they can get in contact with you how they can get your book. If they want it


Elizabeth Wood  42:31

the easiest thing. I know you said go to a local bookshop. And I wish that were the case that there are not many books. And first of all, to have that on the shelf might be controversial for a small book shop owner. However, it is sold on amazon.co. Around the world.uk. Yes, the book has been done everywhere. Yep. 10 countries. Yeah, the book has we have had reach outs from women in India, D is actually going to speak in Turkey. So it is currently only available written in English. We also have the Kindle version. We haven’t done an audio book yet. And we haven’t translated it. But it is available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, other online booksellers to be delivered to the you know, the readers room. And then emails, it’s pretty easy. Elizabeth with a Z, like the former Queen, Elizabeth with a Z at pleasure movement.com. And then D. D. E at pleasure movement.com.


Dee Hartmann  43:58

You can also go to our website, pleasure movement.com and get more information about us and what we do. And Contact Us is obviously on their website as well. Pleasure movement questions, there’s no such thing as dumb question.


Juliette Karaman  44:17

And that’s it right? Because we all want to know more. I mean, for me, it’s like, are you guys doing a course soon? Are you available for speaking engagements? You know, there’s so many questions in my mind. I’m like, Oh my God, how can we bring this further into the world? So if, if any of our listeners that are listening to this thinking like oh my goodness, I want to bring these two women to my country to actually speak about this. Or maybe to talk about this in my in my university or in my business because there are a lot of people that are suffering out there. Please contact your see and Elizabeth word


Elizabeth Wood  45:01

When we were graciously invited to Estonia, a country, neither one of us had been to. And so we spoke at a conference in Estonia and it was one of the most thrilling experiences so even if you you feel this tiny country, you know, bordering Russia now but that’s tiny country we we were able to bring such a bevvy of information to to accom to a beautiful, beautiful country. So we love doing that. Thank you Juliette. We love that so much.


Juliette Karaman  45:39

Amazing. Well, I love what you’re doing in the world. Thank you so much for coming on both of you. Thank you for bringing into the world.


Elizabeth Wood  45:48

Thank you so much really appreciate this. What an honour to be part of your month plus podcast selection


Juliette Karaman  45:59

thrilled to have you thank you and please listeners if this hit a spot to review of you’re like oh my goodness. I know some people that need this that really need to listen to this how to bring more pleasure into their into their world. Peace share this podcast. This is how you spread the love. This is how we have that ripple effect. And I will see you all next time. Until then. Much love

Resources Links:

Title of the book:
The Pleasure Prescription: A Surprising Approach to Healing Sexual Pain by Dee Hartmann, PT, DPT, and Elizabeth Wood, MSW, CSSE, BC:


Website: https://pleasuremovement.com/


Find out more about Juliette Karaman here:


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